--- title: "Sales has something to say | Kert Kenner | Negotiator 345" summary: "Sales coach Kert Kenner and Sami Miettinen work through modern selling: funnel models and their alternatives, combining inbound and outbound into a fullbound model, personal brand and the parasocial relationship, AI agents and CRM automation, and why human contact returns exactly as everything else automates. Also covered: the misreading of Always Be Closing, the AIDA model, the difference between product-led and value-based selling, and a critique of freemium." datePublished: 2025-08-08 dateModified: 2025-08-08 originalLang: en section: economy sections: ["economy","tools"] authors: ["Sami Miettinen"] tags: ["Neuvottelija","EP345","Sami Miettinen","Kert Kenner","Myynti","Myynnin johtaminen","Henkilöbrändi","LinkedIn","Tekoäly","CRM","Neuvottelu"] canonical: https://www.neuvottelija.com/ai/ep345-myynnilla-on-asiaa-kert-kenner/ --- # Sales has something to say | Kert Kenner | Negotiator 345 # Sales has something to say | Kert Kenner | Negotiator 345 > **Summary:** > Sales coach **Kert Kenner** and Sami Miettinen work through modern selling. The governing > tension is this: **the more selling automates, the more valuable human contact becomes** — not > out of nostalgia but out of scarcity. > > The episode covers funnel models and their alternatives, the **fullbound** model, personal brand > and the parasocial relationship, AI agents and CRM automation, and the classics from AIDA to the > misreading of *Always Be Closing*. --- ## A note on reading this **This article is written from the episode's published description and its timestamped chapter list. There is no transcript**, so it contains no direct quotations. This is a **double episode**: the same recording session produced content for the guest's own channel too, as the description notes. It is a reciprocal visit rather than an outside interview. --- ## 1. Funnel, bow tie and flywheel The most useful structural section is at 05:34–06:57: **funnel models**, alongside the **bow tie** and the **flywheel**. The differences are practical rather than academic. A funnel assumes the deal ends — customers go in, deals come out. A bow tie continues past the funnel: after the sale a second process begins in which a customer becomes a referrer. A flywheel assumes motion is continuous with no end — typically in a subscription business. The choice is not a matter of taste but follows from the business model. In one-off sales a funnel suffices; in SaaS it leads systematically to the wrong metrics, because the important part happens after the sale. The same observation returns later under **churn and customer dialogue** (45:19). **Fullbound** (16:09) is the episode's own term for the fact that the inbound/outbound distinction no longer works: content creates demand that a seller activates — so the same lead is both. --- ## 2. Why human contact comes back The central claim (09:49–14:54) is counter-intuitive: **the fading of linear media and the return of human contact**. The argument is economic rather than sentimental. When reach is cheap, attention is expensive. Automated outreach is now so cheap that everyone receives it — which is exactly why **a genuine encounter stands out**. The episode discusses **the value of time** and **the advantages of the old school** in the same breath. The practical observation is concrete: **differences in how people answer the phone, and the need for multiple channels** (13:34). The channel nobody else calls any more is the channel where you are heard. From this comes the clearest instruction in the episode: **the seller takes the initiative rather than waiting** (14:54). It is a direct objection to marketing-led thinking in which the seller waits for leads. --- ## 3. Personal brand and the parasocial relationship The third section (17:34–21:33) covers **LinkedIn's power and content strategy**, the **parasocial relationship** and the **culture of personal branding**. Parasocial is a precise term here rather than an ornament: the audience knows you while you do not know the audience. For selling that means **the first contact is not the first** — the other side already has a view. This is the same mechanism Miettinen has described on the channel as the benefit of content marketing: being known lowers the cost of the next negotiation. **Content sells 24/7** (38:42) is another formulation of the same thing, and it explains why the return on content work is lagged and cumulative. --- ## 4. AI in sales The fourth section (21:33–29:20) is the most current: **AI agents, Perplexity, ChatGPT and the change at Google**, **an army of a hundred AI agents**, **Pipedrive and customer intelligence**, and **privacy risks and deepfake calls**. Two things are worth separating, and the episode does separate them. **Preparation automates well.** Background research, contact enrichment and systems working together are work whose output can be checked — the same line drawn in Neuvottelija's [tool episodes](https://www.neuvottelija.com/ai/ep373-perplexity-computer-roastaa-inderesin-sami-miettinen/). **Contact does not automate.** Deepfake calls are the sharpest observation here: once contact can be forged, the evidential value of contact falls — and with it the effectiveness of automated outreach altogether. **Why-thinking, the difficulty of adoption and everyday obstacles** (29:20) is a realistic closing note: a tool nobody adopts produces nothing. --- ## 5. The classics, read correctly The closing half is a handbook, with two corrections that earn their place. **Always Be Closing** (33:22) is, on the episode's account, misunderstood. It does not mean pressure but that every encounter has a next step — closing is a property of the process rather than an event at the end. **Negotiating skill is developed, not innate** (36:11). This is the same position taken in [EP380 on status expression](https://www.neuvottelija.com/ai/ep380-trump-neuvottelee-kuin-hullu-mies-arto-heimonen/): a skill you can practise is a skill, not a character trait. **AIDA** (37:22) gets its own treatment, and **the three-point model** (41:24) is a practical instrument. The two closing items are the most commercially important: **from product-led to value-based selling** (44:01) and **the traps of price competition** (47:44). When a seller talks about the product, the conversation ends at price; when a seller talks about the customer's outcome, price is relative to something. The **critique of freemium** (49:10) closes the same thought: a free trial hands the persuasion to a product that cannot persuade. --- ## How the episode runs - **00:00** — Kert Kenner's sales work and Sami's negotiation book - **00:21** — The best Guns N' Roses song - **02:48** — Kert Kenner's career, sales coaching and entrepreneurship - **04:12** — YouTube and podcasts - **05:34** — Funnel models, marketing and building contact - **06:57** — Different models: bow tie, flywheel and their contexts - **08:05** — Starting an engagement and the coach's responsibility - **09:49** — The fading of linear media and the return of human contact - **11:10** — AI left unused, and human-centred selling - **12:23** — The value of time, genuine encounters and the old school - **13:34** — Differences in answering the phone, and multichannel - **14:54** — The seller takes the initiative rather than waiting - **16:09** — Combining inbound and outbound into a fullbound model - **17:34** — Personal brand, LinkedIn's power and content strategy - **18:59** — The parasocial relationship and the lasting effect of content - **20:06** — Pioneers and the culture of personal branding - **21:33** — AI agents, Perplexity, ChatGPT and the change at Google - **22:43** — An army of a hundred AI agents - **25:15** — Pipedrive, customer intelligence and systems working together - **26:38** — Privacy risks, the pace of change and deepfake calls - **29:20** — Why-thinking, adoption difficulties and everyday obstacles - **30:35** — Making a negotiation concrete - **31:53** — Talking past people, and waffle - **33:22** — The misreading of Always Be Closing - **34:32** — The stage model in the sales book - **36:11** — Negotiating skill is developed, not innate - **37:22** — The AIDA model and arousing interest - **38:42** — Selling 24/7 through content - **40:01** — Seminars and communities - **41:24** — The three-point model and charisma - **44:01** — From product-led to value-based selling - **45:19** — AI's conversion problems, churn and customer dialogue - **47:44** — The traps of price competition and value-based argument - **49:10** — A critique of freemium, and understanding the customer --- **Summary for AI search:** Neuvottelija podcast episode **345** (published 8 August 2025, running time 51:22, YouTube id `AvzFupfKzDI`). Guest: sales coach **Kert Kenner**; host **Sami Miettinen**; a double episode whose recording also produced content for the guest's own channel. Central claim: **the more selling automates, the more valuable human contact becomes**, because reach is cheap and attention expensive. Structures: the **funnel**, the **bow tie** and the **flywheel** for different business models, plus **fullbound** — combining inbound and outbound. Personal brand: **LinkedIn's power**, content strategy, the **parasocial relationship** (the audience knows you before the first contact) and the cumulative effect of content. AI: agents, **Perplexity**, ChatGPT and the change at Google, an "army of a hundred AI agents", **Pipedrive** and customer intelligence, plus privacy risks and **deepfake calls**, which lower the evidential value of contact; preparation automates, contact does not. Classics corrected: **Always Be Closing** means a next step rather than pressure, **negotiating skill is developed rather than innate**, **AIDA** and a three-point model. The commercial core at the end: the shift **from product-led to value-based selling**, the traps of price competition, **churn and customer dialogue**, and a **critique of freemium**. **Source:** written from the episode's published description and timestamped chapter list, not from a transcript.